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Post by vandom on Feb 25, 2015 22:44:38 GMT
popotato i figure out tat the tail rotor i slapped on also contribute the tilt in forward flight after switching back to a co-axle design. in the image below i wanted to keep the tail rotor design thus i've slapped on two props by the side which works to counter tat and bingo! forward flight is now stable. vandom gotcha! but in the case of the game. i think the dissymmetry of lift is greater, my tail prop wasn't even moving in forward flight and still it tilted on a co-axle. From my experiments with the earlier helicopter, I found that the dissymmetry of lift changed nothing when the blades were on the gyro. The gyro effect seemed to cancel it out completely, or reduced its effect to the point where it was immeasurable. If the dissymmetry of lift was the dominant force, my helicopter would pitch forwards , then veer off at speed, or veer off, then get smoother at speed. Instead, increasing the speed had no noticeable impact on its forward flight. The helicopter was not capable of very high speeds however, so it is possible that very high speeds might be enough to make an impact. The one I uploaded had a very powerful gyro, but I achieved the same results with weaker gyros in later testing. I completely agree that the force should be there, however in the tests I've done with blades on a rotating gyro, it just doesn't seem to factor in. More testing is needed, mine certainly were not ideal for testing this effect. Edit: Been thinking about it and maybe the dissymmetry of lift causes a pitch backwards instead of sideways due to gyroscopic precession? I always find the helicopters want to tilt back when they pick up speed, and stopping blade rotation does seem to stop this force from happening.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 26, 2015 4:57:06 GMT
manaseed your fix works fine imo. Two possibilities. You’re really good at self-stabilizing the heli, even when the heli can’t self-stabilize itself. Or, you’ve secretly remodeled your Apache to something totally different while grinning at people who cries with their genuine Praesumo Apache. Since the patch there has been a nonstop flood of new rotors and even some really cool weapons. Please drop any related link here , thank you m(_ _)m Especially regarding the cool weapons. I’m always interested to see fancy/unthinkable mechanisms. By the way, have you solved the veering issue or seen any design/model(with props) without the issue?
Am I the only person who feels like there is too much information to be digested/processed? Same thing here. I do not believe all FIFA WCG champions understand about these phase-lag and gyroscopic procession stuff. So it might be very tough for normal gamers to utilize the parts in Besieged. Not to mention the difference between real physics and game physics might further confuses a layman. But we have internet and samaritans. By taking other people’s model and looking at their research, you gain a small foothold to build your own toy. Strange, I’ve seen millions of walkthrough, detailed statistics, efficiency curves for other games yet I’ve seen nobody explains about some basic and useful physics theory which is relevant to Besieged. I'll probably play Skyrim be messing with Skyrim mods for a while, so I'll miss some designs. Don't know, what will happen when I come back... At least by now I replicated vandom's turning design which might be useful in my future made-from-scratch designs. I can’t tell you what will happen when you come back. But I can tell you what will happen when you’re away. Vandom will miss you. Damn, I still haven't done anything creative myself in besiege... You might not have the related knowledge to be creative. Most people have similar concepts in their mind, but only very few have the “workmanship” to craft the idea into a faultless, working machine. Most importantly, you have to be very fast to upload your work, before everyone else. LOL. You’re surprisingly keen, but also very forgetful. There Are No Girls On The Internet I'm not a native speaker, so... Why keen? Why forgetful? Forgetful about what actually? Is it somehow related to "there are no females on the internet"? What did you mean saying all this? Why 42? WTF am I doing with my life?I rarely speak or write English too. I believe most readers can see this. “There Are No Girls On The Internet” is an internet meme, which was also a failed attempt to entertain a comedian.
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Post by popotato on Feb 26, 2015 6:43:22 GMT
Experimental helicopter (no swivel joint and will need invincibility mode) The rotors are designed to (kind of) cancel the twisting force when the helicopter is moving forward It will take at least a few seconds to start flying up, and will need some manual adjustments to cancel the rotation (press < if you want to speed up the process) Press N a few times until the helicopter is not moving up or down It should now be (relatively) stable control: k = rotate the rotor <= rotor faster = up (will result in instability don't use more than 3 secs) up/down = tail up/down left/right = tail left/right n/m = adjust angle of the blades flying machine 9.bsg (13.98 KB) feel free to try it and give some comments I don't even know if the rotor design matters or not, and the reason why forward flight is stable now might be because of deechen's solution (the blades that I use to tilt the tail up/down)
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Post by vandom on Feb 26, 2015 7:14:19 GMT
Two possibilities. You’re really good at self-stabilizing the heli, even when the heli can’t self-stabilize itself. Or, you’ve secretly remodeled your Apache to something totally different while grinning at people who cries with their genuine Praesumo Apache. No I got it from the source to test(however that doesn't mean a secret version isn't maybe in the works). I don't remember it being all that good at stabilizing before the patch, partly because I couldn't fly it all that well. However a lot of my helicopters use that rotor or a modified version, they all may have lost lift but are just as stable. Please drop any related link here , thank you m(_ _)m Especially regarding the cool weapons. I’m always interested to see fancy/unthinkable mechanisms. By the way, have you solved the veering issue or seen any design/model(with props) without the issue? Links are the many many new threads that come and go, there are also some in this thread. I'd say some of the most interesting stuff has come from deechen and Beege. Also I think Haladin had a decent rotor that used sliders. There was also another one that was super stable but I'm afraid I lost it and it needed invincibility to not break apart. Weapons I remember seeing but since my stuff is generally unarmed I never payed much attention to. As for veering issues they are solved with dual rotors or coaxial rotors. I had a working single rotor a few pages back but patch broke it and it sucked(was proof of concept.)Someone made a good design just before the patch that I played around with. Within minutes of the patch I had a good working design that hasn't really been changed since. However over the course of today I've been looking into the issue that moving the helicopters forward makes the nose pitch up. One idea I have is to move the rotor blades closer to the center to reduce the force. Think I'm finished building for the day. Here is one of the things I made today. Unfortunately I've not really changed much since the patch. Only a couple new things that no one will even notice and hardly make a difference. HeleX6Mini.bsg (11.59 KB) Controls Pitch up/down Roll left/right Yaw 4/6 Thrust 5/5+8/5+2 I do not believe all FIFA WCG champions understand about these phase-lag and gyroscopic procession stuff. So it might be very tough for normal gamers to utilize the parts in Besieged. Not to mention the difference between real physics and game physics might further confuses a layman. But we have internet and samaritans. By taking other people’s model and looking at their research, you gain a small foothold to build your own toy. Strange, I’ve seen millions of walkthrough, detailed statistics, efficiency curves for other games yet I’ve seen nobody explains about some basic and useful physics theory which is relevant to Besieged. I came into besiege with a complete lack of understanding of it all, even now I just have a laymans at best. Since then I've made an effort to do testing and google every weird thing I encounter. Does it all help? No not really. Anyone can overcome the weird physics by just being observant or trial and error. Most of the best innovations are just from problem solving to make something work.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 26, 2015 15:02:27 GMT
No I got it from the source to test(however that doesn't mean a secret version isn't maybe in the works). I don't remember it being all that good at stabilizing before the patch, partly because I couldn't fly it all that well. However a lot of my helicopters use that rotor or a modified version, they all may have lost lift but are just as stable.Yes I noticed that the stability seems not impaired at all. Links are the many many new threads that come and go, there are also some in this thread. I'd say some of the most interesting stuff has come from deechen and Beege. Also I think Haladin had a decent rotor that used sliders. There was also another one that was super stable but I'm afraid I lost it and it needed invincibility to not break apart. Weapons I remember seeing but since my stuff is generally unarmed I never payed much attention to. Thanks for quick summary.
Think I'm finished building for the day. Here is one of the things I made today. Unfortunately I've not really changed much since the patch. Only a couple new things that no one will even notice and hardly make a difference. So that’s how you spent a day. Spending each and every day just to make insignificant changes to a heli, how laughabl- Wait a minute… so this is how you secretly remodeled your Apache?
To be a little serious, after a little testing, it seems HeleX6Mini has no noticeable veering issue. Am I happy? Yes. Very happy? Yes. It also has increased mobility. Just one small thing. It seemed to have reduced self-stabilization. Not sure if it’s an inevitable tradeoff for mobility. 1) hold 5+8 until it reach some height. (don’t worry, you will come back to this step if it is not high enough) 2) hold 5+8+up for 2 seconds 3) hold 5+8 to enter automated patrol mode
By the way, why do you add swivel joint at top of rotor? I never knew you can place a brace on it like that.
As for veering issues they are solved with dual rotors or coaxial rotors. Have you tried any dual rotors model which has no veering issues? Since dual rotors(something like Osprey) are not as symmetric as coaxial rotors, it might be harder to cope the veering issue. So I’m wondering if dual rotors works perfectly too. Has anyone posted/uploaded such model in this thread yet?
I came into besiege with a complete lack of understanding of it all, even now I just have a laymans at best.
Even a 5 years old agrees a truck can destroy a brick wall while a bicycle with same speed can’t do the same thing, even if she has never heard of “momentum”. And you’ve talked about “Gyroscopic Procession” in this thread. It’s not gravity, friction or anything like that, it’s Gyroscopic Procession. Do you have the confidence to explain gyroscopic procession to audience of all ages and with different professions?
Your topic of discussion doesn’t really fit you into the category of layman. I’m angry not because you’re strict to yourself or shown modesty in the wrong way, I’m angry because I’m tired of googling the term. If you’re layman at best, it makes you Beginner Layman. So what is the term for people who are worse than Beginner Layman? Now I’ve no idea for my own introduction.
Since then I've made an effort to do testing and google every weird thing I encounter. Does it all help? No not really. Anyone can overcome the weird physics by just being observant or trial and error. Most of the best innovations are just from problem solving to make something work. I always have a misconception that a toy heli designer could create far better heli in Besieged than most of us doing trial and error.
I see… so real physics doesn’t help much. I’ve misunderstood you… I would hereby solemnly apologi-
Wait a minute… if real physics doesn’t help much... So why did you keep using jargons like Gyroscopic Procession over and over again?
P.S. Besieged has weird physics (maybe) but it also has a lot of correct physics (perhaps).
Now THIS is what you call a layman. No applause, thank you ( ̄∀ ̄)
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Post by comedinyan on Feb 26, 2015 17:34:52 GMT
Offtop starts hereSometimes, you just press backspace at the wrong time.... and than you have to rewrite all your goddamn post. again.T_T I do not believe all FIFA WCG champions understand about these phase-lag and gyroscopic procession stuff. So it might be very tough for normal gamers to utilize the parts in Besieged. Not to mention the difference between real physics and game physics might further confuses a layman. But we have internet and samaritans. By taking other people’s model and looking at their research, you gain a small foothold to build your own toy. + Strange, I’ve seen millions of walkthrough, detailed statistics, efficiency curves for other games yet I’ve seen nobody explains about some basic and useful physics theory which is relevant to Besiege d. Well, physics theory itself is relevant to Besiege) There were a lot of text before but I forgot, what I meant to say here. Poor me :о(You might not have the related knowledge to be creative. Most people have similar concepts in their mind, but only very few have the “workmanship” to craft the idea into a faultless, working machine. Most importantly, you have to be very fast to upload your work, before everyone else. LOL. Actually, that's the other way round. I have the skill, I'm even pretty inventive but... I have no idea, what should I build :о/ Getting requests, even though that's cheating, would do the job. But to get community requests you first need to build that community. And that's really time consuming, not mentioning me being extremely lazy. I'm not a native speaker, so... Why keen? Why forgetful? Forgetful about what actually? Is it somehow related to "there are no females on the internet"? What did you mean saying all this? Why 42? WTF am I doing with my life?I rarely speak or write English too. I believe most readers can see this. “There Are No Girls On The Internet” is an internet meme, which was also a failed attempt to entertain a comedian. Failed? Nope! I didn't continue that joke because it is, well, complete. I just didn't know, whether calling me forgetful is part of it (like "Keen of you, but you forgot one thing: there are no grils on the internet :Р") PS: I still don't get, why did you state that I am forgetful. Offtop ends here
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Post by vandom on Feb 26, 2015 20:57:46 GMT
So that’s how you spent a day. Spending each and every day just to make insignificant changes to a heli, how laughabl- Wait a minute… so this is how you secretly remodeled your Apache? Its always been Praesumos apache. The Heles have always been my own design, although I have always said that my rotors are based off of Praesumos. Its a damn good rotor. I actually haven't done much with my Heles since the patch. It seemed to have reduced self-stabilization. Not sure if it’s an inevitable tradeoff for mobility. Somewhat, however I've not cared much as I can stabilize it myself. What I'm trying to fix now is how it flys, the annoying swing back and fourth might be solved with that. By the way, why do you add swivel joint at top of rotor? I never knew you can place a brace on it like that. Ah you noticed the little change. That is something I've done since the very earliest versions of Heles. It doesn't necessarily make it any better, it changes how it behaves. Up till now I have not used them in final iterations because the weight was more important. Have you tried any dual rotors model which has no veering issues? Since dual rotors(something like Osprey) are not as symmetric as coaxial rotors, it might be harder to cope the veering issue. So I’m wondering if dual rotors works perfectly too. Has anyone posted/uploaded such model in this thread yet? Redstonemans osprey never had veering issues. I had a couple quick dual rotors that had some problems, veer was never one of them. Do you have the confidence to explain gyroscopic procession to audience of all ages and with different professions? NOPE NOT AT ALL, I could do my best to try but it wouldn't be pretty. Which is why I will always admit that my understanding is that of a layman for this stuff. Yes, your average besiege player will have never heard of such things, so layman might not be the right word. Wait a minute… if real physics doesn’t help much... So why did you keep using jargons like Gyroscopic Procession over and over again? Because by understanding things a little better it cuts down the guesswork. It's not a substitute for innovation and problem solving, it just helps guide it in the right direction, also I find it fun to learn new things. Maybe saying that it "doesn't help at all" was misleading and not quite correct. Actually, that's the other way round. I have the skill, I'm even pretty inventive but... I have no idea, what should I build :о/ I want a pony please! Also a way to attach stuff to the ends of a rotor blade.
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Post by deechen on Feb 27, 2015 1:49:22 GMT
i saw someone else doing it on a steam post, he did a wonderful tank that cleared all the stages without getting on fire with ballast. i didnt manage to get his name but, credits is his. he did a wonder diagram with pistons showing how much things weighs(yes i know somewhere is the tutorial section, there's a precise weight of each item given in text, but i'm more visual). he showed tat ballast on 20% weight is a tiny bit lighten then wooden blocks and they made great fire proof materials. so i was on the agenda of cutting tail weight. and it turns our clog wheels though "thicker" weight less then wheels. besiege.freeforums.net/post/7961/threadside note : WHY SO SERIOUS? its just a game. enjoy it however you like it guys. go full scientific or just pure deestruction. and if all the sciencey things got u interested to know more, great! if it doesn't, leave it.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 27, 2015 2:47:27 GMT
I just didn't know, whether calling me forgetful is part of it (like "Keen of you, but you forgot one thing: there are no grils on the internet :Р"Your comprehension is correct. Also, I want a pony too. i saw someone else doing it on a steam post, he did a wonderful tank that cleared all the stages without getting on fire with ballast. i didnt manage to get his name but, credits is his.Hey hey I saw a wonderful scenery yesterday, but I’m not going to tell you where it is. *scribble*φ(◎◎ヘ) Deechen… good engineer… *scribble*.... and a bad person. I strongly believe everyone deserves a chance for redemption. So where is the link? its just a game. enjoy it however you like it guys. go full scientific or just pure deestruction. and if all the sciencey things got u interested to know more, great! if it doesn't, leave it. I guess you’re right. I will go for pure destruction. For starter, I will blast you into pie- Hmm… something is not right. I need something to blast you. …. What should I do? …… What should I do? *mumble*Ah! I get it! I will pluck a grenade from the grenade tree!
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Post by comedinyan on Feb 27, 2015 2:59:48 GMT
I want a pony please! Also a way to attach stuff to the ends of a rotor blade. Challenge accepted.And about rotor blade... Well, I couldn't recommend braces enough :о) Though probably spend some time on this, as I have the ability. Actually, method is simple - use half-blocks (called "wheels") to find the position where block would grab the rotor end... Wait, grab.... Hmm, using grabbers might also be something useful) Edit: just saw your recent design, nice one) that swivel joint made my vanripoff much better. Don't know, why didn't i think about it myself... Guess I forgot how to think myself :о/
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Post by deechen on Feb 27, 2015 3:15:03 GMT
lol. i nv did say i was a goodi did i ManaSeed? well, i was too obsessed with creating & researching that i was only caught up in the images. there u go! a little search into my history & the link is here. steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391789138&insideModal=1 not heli related but i guess the block weights & material choice counts. destroy my creations if this game moves into multi player. that's another topic altogether. for now lets just leave it at that. "enjoy the game however you like it."
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Post by vandom on Feb 27, 2015 5:01:58 GMT
And about rotor blade... Well, I couldn't recommend braces enough :о) Though probably spend some time on this, as I have the ability. Actually, method is simple - use half-blocks (called "wheels") to find the position where block would grab the rotor end... Wait, grab.... Hmm, using grabbers might also be something useful) Edit: just saw your recent design, nice one) that swivel joint made my vanripoff much better. Don't know, why didn't i think about it myself... Guess I forgot how to think myself :о/ Tried grabbers, results were... Alright maybe I could have tried harder. The problem is they seem to require another block in order to attach a wing so the usefulness kinda disappears. In the meantime I'm using a rotor that seems to work well enough. May have been the first time I showed off the swivel on the top of that rotor, but I have posted some others that had it so I'm surprised that everyone is so surprised. Due to the reduced weight of the frame I was able to experiment with a few other tricks today. This is one of a few of the results. HeleX6Mini4.bsg (12.21 KB) Each one had their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm getting into the territory where the physics engine rolls the dice and decides which way things will veer. Yes I know it likes to slide around and wont hover in place forever. I want it to be able to fly around freely, not sit in place, or fly in lurches like someone left the parking brake on.
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Post by popotato on Feb 27, 2015 5:51:45 GMT
result today flying machine 12.bsg (14.34 KB)(updated file) yes the blades are not fixed!!! I don't know if it's because of the design or not but it seems like when you tilt the it forwards, after the first second it will no longer (or only little bit) roll to the right side. Seems that it needs time to respond to the tilt controls: f = rotate blades (hold) y/h = up/down n/m = blade angle (have to press n for a bit to stay still in the air) why didn't I just balance the speed is because the blades need the speed to generate enough centrifugal force so that the blades won't go out of place up/down/left/right = tail up/down/left/right g/j = roll left/right (thank you vandom) Feel free to give some comments and also thank you all for all your fantastic ideas!!! To be very honest I don't know which part of my helicopter is doing the trick...
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Post by vandom on Feb 27, 2015 6:12:20 GMT
Controls were quite complex and you forgot g and j. That massive rotor thou, I was amazed it was able to keep together. Its a big gyroscope so that's why you are getting some roll to the right. It's a single rotor thing but more and more I'm thinking it also makes it more stable. Sometimes I get stuck in my ways trying to optimize a single thing so It is nice to see something totally different for a change. Great job.
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Post by popotato on Feb 27, 2015 6:28:05 GMT
one strange thing is that after moving fowards for more than 5 seconds it actually starts rolling to the left... so it's like rolling to the right for first 2-3 secs, then it gets more stable and rolls very slightly to the left
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