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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 17, 2015 4:20:15 GMT
Apache Attack Heli.bsg Once tilted forward the chopper will continue that way. Also, before moving forward, tilt the rotors forward slightly (or to your liking) by pressing U. O tilts them back. This helps with forward travel and keeps the rotors from hitting the tail if you overuse the forward button. I have trouble moving forward. There are 3 results once it was tilted forward: 1) after titled forward, if I press nothing = it falls & move forward by a little 2) after titled forward, if I press Shift(thurst/lift) = it lifts & move forward by a little 3) after titled forward, if I press Shift(thurst/lift) + I(tilt forward) = it lifts & move forward by a little, and rotor hit the tail Since I can’t tilt forward a lot, it tends to lift rather than move forward. I have to consistently hold and release the thrust, tap the forward tilt rhythmically, just to make it move forward slowly. Unfortunately, it doesn’t help no matter how I adjust the rudder pitch or use U/O (tilt rotor forward/back) The real bad news is, I don’t see you having this problem in your youtube demo. So anyone else is experiencing this problem or has any idea what have I done wrong? P.S. By the way, the mechanism which allows rotor output/speed to change is fantastic especially in cases of parking the chopper. As you slowly decrease rotor output, you have a lot of precision for parking. This is definitely different with releasing the thrust key slowly, when you’re using rotors with fixed speed. [/quote]
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Hipster Cheese
Peasant
Six hundred and fourth times the charm.
Posts: 4
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Post by Hipster Cheese on Feb 17, 2015 7:26:50 GMT
Feels like i'm playing Battlefield.
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Post by Redstoneman on Feb 17, 2015 8:13:16 GMT
So I did a little testing and the findings aren't surprising, seems like besiege does have some magic physics going on in it. This is my little testing platform. The weighted part representing the propellers will be rotating clockwise. I control the pitch forwards and backwards, however It is allowed to tilt left and right freely. When I pitch the rotating weights forwards it is pulled to the right. When I pitch it backwards it is pulled to the left. Changing the rotation swapped the directions. Redstonemans osprey doesn't have this effect because he uses two propellers made of wings spinning in opposite directions. I believe there is a lot of demand for reversed props so the solutions for these prop driven designs might just be waiting for a future patch. Actually already using what I learned to make some designs better. I actually tried to make an Osprey with propellers instead of wing panels on its rotors, but I failed miserably. I just realised that was because I couldn't really mirror the propellers. My Ospreys may be stable (more or less) but their current rotors do have a lot of disadvantages. They're heavy, they take up a lot of space, are fragile and the initial lag that happens upon starting up the machine often causes the wing panels to fly off in random directions, unless you slow the time donw first. It seems to me that physics in this game aren't constant and instead depend on the speed at which the time flows. Unity might be the cause of it. This is another possible explaination of what happens to your aircraft. I've scrapped two more Osprey prototypes (total of four so far) and I can't seem to get it. I'm missing a magic trick. By trying to keep it legal I make them less and less resistant to their inside forces. By adding weight I prevent them from even leaving the ground. HALP.
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Post by vandom on Feb 17, 2015 9:24:04 GMT
Unity might be the cause of it. This is another possible explaination of what happens to your aircraft. What's that? Assassin's creed unitys buggyness is so strong it has managed to bridge the gap between games! Ill try uninstalling Uplay and see if my helicopters improve. I'm actually positive that the effect I documented is the root of my troubles. Changes to some of my designs have resulted in modest gains of stability. Unfortunately only some of my designs benefit, the single rotors will probably always have this flaw as they already struggle to get enough power as is. I might be able to design a much better dual rotor design but that is a project for another day. I've done so much testing i've grown sick of it, all my besiege work has devolved into... I swear, it started as an experiment to test something about conservation of angular momentum or something like that. I don't think the world is ready for such juvenile propulsion methods. gfycat.com/ScaredAdventurousFlycatcher
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Post by Redstoneman on Feb 17, 2015 9:49:32 GMT
Unity might be the cause of it. This is another possible explaination of what happens to your aircraft. What's that? Assassin's creed unitys buggyness is so strong it has managed to bridge the gap between games! Ill try uninstalling Uplay and see if my helicopters improve. By saying Unity I meant the engine of the game... It possesses non-constant physics that alter slightly in various circumstances. Many smaller-scale games run on this engine nowadays.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 17, 2015 10:08:50 GMT
Ugh this one... yea it is something I am PAINFULLY aware of. The real difficulty with this phenomena is it only happens at certain times(so cant passively counteract it) and it changes in strength over the course of the tilt forwards(so having corrections tied to forward pitch controls either does too much or too little just making it unpredictable). If someone could help with this issue it'd make a lot of designs better. I haven't bothered to test too much into what this thing is but I suspect something like this. Unfortunately this is where physics turns to magic for myself. What is this seemingly boring video?
M…
I…
*gulp*
Are you a MI-
Huh? What did I say? P-Please don’t mind it!
*look away* Err…. I… Uhm… gotta go. S-see you!
P.S. *Whisper* I’ve been suspecting the reason why a lot of amazing machines are made.
Yeah they exists, these MI-
So I did a little testing and the findings aren't surprising, seems like besiege does have some magic physics going on in it. This is my little testing platform. The weighted part representing the propellers will be rotating clockwise. I control the pitch forwards and backwards, however It is allowed to tilt left and right freely. When I pitch the rotating weights forwards it is pulled to the right. When I pitch it backwards it is pulled to the left. Changing the rotation swapped the directions. Redstonemans osprey doesn't have this effect because he uses two propellers made of wings spinning in opposite directions. I believe there is a lot of demand for reversed props so the solutions for these prop driven designs might just be waiting for a future patch. Actually already using what I learned to make some designs better. My dearest friend, I have a good news and a bad news. The good news is, I think I found what causes the veering. Drag the chopper to a high altitude, drop it several times by double tapping spacebar. Now remove any part you deem suspicious and drop it again. Here comes the bad news. Care to take a guess what parts I took away to make the machine free fall symmetrically? *gulp*
All 8 propellers.
The top 4 propellers (which generates force) cause most of the veer, while the bottom 4 (which creates air friction to hinder swivel joint from spinning) cause minimal veer. Only when all 8 propellers are removed, the free fall is perfectly symmetric 100/100 times.
This sad but I guess normal player can’t do much from now. We have to leave to the MI-
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Post by vandom on Feb 17, 2015 10:41:11 GMT
Not too surprised by the results except for one. When removing just the large wings I would have expected it to not veer as much as the rotor hardly spins at all. The plane props really made a huge difference, far more so than the the weighted blocks. This effect is different from the one I discovered so bravo good work! That said, dropping it from a great height is not the same as tilting forwards. Tomorrow I'll try and set up some more tests that would be a little closer to how the helicopter actually works.
I'm thinking it might end up being a combination of the two effects. That would explain some of the really strange unpredictable lurches that I still sometimes get on some of my new designs that that have incorporated a counter to the effect I discovered earlier.
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Post by menma on Feb 17, 2015 10:53:47 GMT
I made the osprey too. Since the folding wing was absolute conditions, adjustment was really really hard. I also hope strongly the additional mirror propeller. Osprey2.bsg (14.14 KB) 1 - expand the wings 2 - return 3 - lock the wing shaft T - basic lifting force Y - lifting force for adjustment U - up tail 4 5 - roll left and right 1 2 - cant to the left and right 0 - drop the bomb This is a machine translation. sorry.
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Post by Redstoneman on Feb 17, 2015 11:06:38 GMT
I made the osprey too. Since the folding wing was absolute conditions, adjustment was really really hard. I also hope strongly the additional mirror propeller. 1 - expand the wings 2 - return 3 - lock the wing shaft T - basic lifting force Y - lifting force for adjustment U - up tail 4 5 - roll left and right 1 2 - cant to the left and right 0 - drop the bomb This is a machine translation. sorry. Damn, that's some mighty fine machine you've got there! In all honesty I never thought about folding the wings so that it could be legal... Thanks for the inspiration, I'll give you credit if I come up with anything that uses your method.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 17, 2015 14:24:12 GMT
I felt great after I have tested Praesumo’s Apache and MI_ student’s HELE3/X5 more. They both provide great and different satisfaction. For former, you can adjust “engine output” and “travel speed”. It always makes you think you’re skillful. For latter, it makes everything feels so easy and you don’t have to pay much attention. Happy? Yes. Choppers~ Choppers~ Time to test more free, shiny, new choppers. Hohoho. PraesumoSorry for previous question regarding moving forward. More practices made me understand how it works. Hehe, but there’s another question! May I know what the purpose of these hinges and braces is? It seems can’t limit the angle of rotor to tilt forward and backward. It also seems can’t absorb shock nor make the rotor more sturdy.
Not too surprised by the results except for one. When removing just the large wings I would have expected it to not veer as much as the rotor hardly spins at all. The plane props really made a huge difference, far more so than the the weighted blocks. This effect is different from the one I discovered so bravo good work! That said, dropping it from a great height is not the same as tilting forwards. Tomorrow I'll try and set up some more tests that would be a little closer to how the helicopter actually works.
I'm thinking it might end up being a combination of the two effects. That would explain some of the really strange unpredictable lurches that I still sometimes get on some of my new designs that that have incorporated a counter to the effect I discovered earlier. I’m not sure at all, after I’ve seen how air drag/friction has veered the machine, I have a feeling even two opposing rotors might not fix the problem.If you fixed this veering problem, I don’t know… I just don’t know… What if this becomes tomorrow’s heading? “MI_ student has taken a point from Praesumo” I don’t know…. whom should I support. Arghh….
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Post by comedinyan on Feb 17, 2015 14:40:21 GMT
So I did a little testing and the findings aren't surprising, seems like besiege does have some magic physics going on in it. Seems those picture server is out right now... Either that or something on my end. Could you reupload them somewhere? That experiment would definitely look better with those pictures (I guess) And, umm, does anyone have Unity source code? That would help our cause a lot if we could just look up the physics code. I mean, if not, we have to discover the laws of physics of the engine. Actually, is this game powered by Unity?
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Post by Redstoneman on Feb 17, 2015 14:51:04 GMT
So I did a little testing and the findings aren't surprising, seems like besiege does have some magic physics going on in it. Seems those picture server is out right now... Either that or something on my end. Could you reupload them somewhere? That experiment would definitely look better with those pictures (I guess) And, umm, does anyone have Unity source code? That would help our cause a lot if we could just look up the physics code. I mean, if not, we have to discover the laws of physics of the engine. Actually, is this game powered by Unity? Yes it is powered by unity. Let me find the proof... Here. This is the official Unity site, showing Besiege. I can't find a single damn line where it would strictly say that it is powered by Unity, but I'm sure you can find out yourself.
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Post by vandom on Feb 17, 2015 22:59:45 GMT
“MI_ student has taken a point from Praesumo” I don’t know…. whom should I support. Arghh…. I wake up this morning and and see this MI_student thing? Where did this come from I wonder? Oh I missed you call me out in that spoiler haha. Firstly it was the very first thing that came up when I googled some words that sounded like the thing I was thinking of. If I was really who you claim I am, I would have read the description and realized it was totally not the thing I was thinking of. (at least I don't think so)
Also I do think I solved the majority of the sideways drift in some designs so mission half way accomplished. However aside from my pitch mechanism (which actually might be what was shown in that video), pretty much all my rotor work is built upon Praes base design. I tweak it every once in a while but the vast majority of the time there isn't any way to make it better. In other news I still can't think of a way to test your falling rotor effect thing. I still can't really understand why it even does that, its really strange. So I did a little testing and the findings aren't surprising, seems like besiege does have some magic physics going on in it. Seems those picture server is out right now... Either that or something on my end. Could you reupload them somewhere? That experiment would definitely look better with those pictures (I guess) They are in game screenshots taken directly off my steam screenshot library. They should be set to public so I don't know what your problem is. If anyone else is having issues with my screenshots I'll put the effort in to throw them on imgur but for now I'm too lazy and those aren't really important.
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Post by vandom on Feb 18, 2015 1:35:21 GMT
My dearest friend, I have a good news and a bad news. The good news is, I think I found what causes the veering. Drag the chopper to a high altitude, drop it several times by double tapping spacebar. Now remove any part you deem suspicious and drop it again. Here comes the bad news. Care to take a guess what parts I took away to make the machine free fall symmetrically? I think I figured out what was the cause of it all. Learned a few new things along the way as well. Firstly, the props give a lot of lift, like as much as one of the large wings tilted. I expect when the reversed version is added, people will discover that they work just as well as the large wings on their planes, better in many cases. Now that that is out of the way, we can understand why the helicopter veers off when dropped. One prop is gaining lift from the forward/downward movement, the one on the other side is being pushed down which rolls the craft. Very simple. This was nearly impossible to replicate with a spinning rotor(and very difficult to test so take some of what I say as speculation), partially because the gained stability prevented it from rolling, instead it manifested as a push to the right. When not moving a helicopter will not experience this, however when it is moving forwards at a rapid rate, it will. I believe this is called Dissymmetry of lift or something and it will be solved with multi rotor or coaxial rotors that incorporate reversed props. Until then this force will plague the single rotor designs at high forward speeds. This is separate from the other thing I found earlier that only happened when a rotating mass was tilted forwards. Hopefully Praesumo(or anyone with more than a laymans understanding of physics) will read this and invent some kind of lift system that overcomes these dastardly physics.
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Post by ManaSeed on Feb 18, 2015 4:45:20 GMT
Pretty much all my rotor work is built upon Praes base design. I tweak it every once in a while but the vast majority of the time there isn't any way to make it better.The rotor looks beautiful, isn’t it? I used to think probably some parts are for decoration purpose. No, every little thing has its function. 1) hinders the swivel joint from spinning, this probably the most compact method to do it 2a) extension --> you can add 3 sets of props like this to increase some lifting power --> but with extension, you can attach props or wings, if you attach props it gives more/less extra lifting power as above. Not to mention this looks better and has potential for further modification. 2b)output/speed changer --> self explanatory, think this as big big bonus for precision. 3)cool wings --> Combined with rotation force, this is the thing that self-stabilizes the machine. To me, it doesn’t seem the properties of wing can perform such feat. I’m totally curious how did Pra find out about this mechanism. Can you imagine a small rotor has so many effects with it? Pra is scary… …as scary as Van. In other news I still can't think of a way to test your falling rotor effect thing. I still can't really understand why it even does that, its really strange.To clarify things, you mean veering instead of falling right? Firstly, the props give a lot of lift, like as much as one of the large wings tilted. I expect when the reversed version is added, people will discover that they work just as well as the large wings on their planes, better in many cases.As rotor’s blade, the props actually give more lift than large wings. Replace larges wings with props you’ll see. You can think props as small tilted wings. However, Pra rotor design told us we can’t replace the large wing with props as we can’t sacrifice self-stabilizing for lifting power. we can understand why the helicopter veers off when dropped. One prop is gaining lift from the forward/downward movement, the one on the other side is being pushed down which rolls the craft. Very simple. Very arrogant. Me.Okay~ *claps slowly* This was nearly impossible to replicate with a spinning rotor(and very difficult to test so take some of what I say as speculation), partially because the gained stability prevented it from rolling, instead it manifested as a push to the right. When not moving a helicopter will not experience this, however when it is moving forwards at a rapid rate, it will. I believe this is called Dissymmetry of lift or something and it will be solved with multi rotor or coaxial rotors that incorporate reversed props. Until then this force will plague the single rotor designs at high forward speeds.Yes I’m thinking more of less the same thing. It should be caused by unsymmetrical design of props. I just can’t believe it causes that much force to veer a lot of mass (even I saw it in experiment). Multi rotor might be good news… but even If rotors can spin in opposite direction… you can’t never place a propeller in mirrored fashion, like this.And this might give you A LOT of trouble to solve the veer problem.
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