Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development)

classicsoldier
Peasant

Posts: 17

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 9:28:13 GMT

Post by classicsoldier on Feb 21, 2015 9:28:13 GMT

I tried to replicate the blade design of an RC helicopter including the gyroscopic part on top of it:

This is what I got on my first attempt:

RC Heli.bsg (5.91 KB)

Controls (both versions):
m,n for wing angle
[+] for spinup
then [enter] for spinning
add [+] for additional thrust (currently breaks the wood but a decoupler didn't perform better either)
arrow keys for pitch and yaw
no roll yet on the demonstrator

My problem now is, that there are no ball joints in the game yet. That's why it can't work properly at the moment. But my attempt, to create the free movements necessary on my own, didn't work well either:

RC Heli 2.bsg (6.09 KB)

That's why I ask you for your support on my suggestion thread begging for ball joints and universal joints which would give us some much needed options to shrink builds.

Last Edit: Feb 21, 2015 9:50:21 GMT by classicsoldier

deechen
Builder

Posts: 39

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 10:03:44 GMT

Post by deechen on Feb 21, 2015 10:03:44 GMT

i was attempting to build a swashplate too. end up with 2 problems. one which is no ball joint. the other is that a swashplate needs 2 frictionless surface to slide over each other. bummer. however a gyro has already been created with in game mechanics by another awesome creator, but it involves 2 opposite rotating rotors,some weights and a swivel. i've adapted them into my heli & chinook. hope for new content & blocks!
besiege.freeforums.net/thread/1315/chinook-bomber-post-stable-flight

Last Edit: Feb 21, 2015 10:04:42 GMT by deechen

classicsoldier
Peasant

Posts: 17

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 10:18:52 GMT

Post by classicsoldier on Feb 21, 2015 10:18:52 GMT

I know the awesome design you mentioned and many others that include a gyro (your's is one of the best so far), I just tried to replicate a different way. The main advantage of the RC helicopter style is that it doesn't need a swashplate but just a hinge. The best replication of a real helicopter I know so far is this one by beege. But it isn't practicle. That's why I'm putting that much of an effort in the RC style. It might solve the problem, that all other helicopter desings have, that the level of your rotors is hard to tilt because it acts as a gyro itself. But with some sort of cyclic blade control, we might be able counteract this.

Last Edit: Feb 21, 2015 10:22:30 GMT by classicsoldier

deechen
Builder

Posts: 39

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 10:50:14 GMT

Post by deechen on Feb 21, 2015 10:50:14 GMT

Feb 21, 2015 10:18:52 GMT classicsoldier said:

I know the awesome design you mentioned and many others that include a gyro (your's is one of the best so far), I just tried to replicate a different way. The main advantage of the RC helicopter style is that it doesn't need a swashplate but just a hinge. The best replication of a real helicopter I know so far is this one by beege. But it isn't practicle. That's why I'm putting that much of an effort in the RC style. It might solve the problem, that all other helicopter desings have, that the level of your rotors is hard to tilt because it acts as a gyro itself. But with some sort of cyclic blade control, we might be able counteract this.

omg thanks for referring me to beege's work!!! although it is making use of the ghosting properties of the game mechanics for stuff to pass each other & looks glitchy. a swash plate looks possible. time to fiddle with this work!

classicsoldier
Peasant

Posts: 17

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 10:54:48 GMT

Post by classicsoldier on Feb 21, 2015 10:54:48 GMT

Feb 21, 2015 10:50:14 GMT deechen said:

Feb 21, 2015 10:18:52 GMT classicsoldier said:

I know the awesome design you mentioned and many others that include a gyro (your's is one of the best so far), I just tried to replicate a different way. The main advantage of the RC helicopter style is that it doesn't need a swashplate but just a hinge. The best replication of a real helicopter I know so far is this one by beege. But it isn't practicle. That's why I'm putting that much of an effort in the RC style. It might solve the problem, that all other helicopter desings have, that the level of your rotors is hard to tilt because it acts as a gyro itself. But with some sort of cyclic blade control, we might be able counteract this.

omg thanks for referring me to beege's work!!! although it is making use of the ghosting properties of the game mechanics for stuff to pass each other & looks glitchy. a swash plate looks possible. time to fiddle with this work!

You are welcome. I'm looking forward to your version. I'm confident that talented builders like beege and you can solve some of the problems that are still left to replicate helicopters as realistic as possible.

beege
Engineer

Posts: 68

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 21, 2015 21:24:40 GMT SuburbanSB and deechen like this

Post by beege on Feb 21, 2015 21:24:40 GMT

Hello folks,

A couple issues with swash plates and helicopters in general.

First, read this thread:

besiege.freeforums.net/thread/924/aerodynamic-propeller-thrust-incorrect

If you don't understand what's backwards it will stress you out. Your builds will work the opposite of what you think they should in some ways. Helicopters use angle of attack of the rotor blades and it can chew you up if you don't know the problems.

Regarding real swash plates in game it boils down to size issues. On the rotor it takes one block minimum for the center (rotating) shaft. Then to have any controls it takes another blank block on each side so the moving part does not rub and then one more block to attach to. So your main rotor hub ends up 5 blocks wide.

The same thing happens on the two axis gimbal mounts for the swash plate. You start with a 5 wide unit but then have to add a blank one on each side so you can get movement without rubbing and then you have to have another block for movement. On each side. So we are up to 9 blocks long ( 5 plus 2 on each side) for a single axis gimbal. Then the next axis adds 4 more for the same reasons. Now our gimbal is 11 blocks wide. This makes for a machine that is unwieldy.

Universal joints (ball joints) take just two 90 degree rotated hinges, so it's only one block wide in the direction of rotation but it's two block long along its length. Then you need another one on the other end so minimum drive shaft with universals on each end is 4 blocks.

If you get clever you can use rubber bands on each side of something for a control shaft but they flex a LOT and it overwhelms the savings in space and placement.

Just chiming in to let you know I feel your pain. The game has lots of ways to accomplish most of the same things much easier EXCEPT no way that I can think of to get changes that are automatic with rotation, ie: rotor blades change with each rotation. The game has no feedback mechanisms so the only feedback is physical meaning the giant sized mechanical solutions described above.

It's not meant to be a helicopter builder game but it shows what a great game it is when we can all do whatever we want with it.

Good luck,

Beege

Last Edit: Feb 21, 2015 21:28:25 GMT by beege

deechen
Builder

Posts: 39

Gyro-stabilized RC Heli (in development) Feb 23, 2015 9:55:55 GMT

Post by deechen on Feb 23, 2015 9:55:55 GMT

Feb 21, 2015 21:24:40 GMT beege said:

Hello folks,

A couple issues with swash plates and helicopters in general.

First, read this thread:

besiege.freeforums.net/thread/924/aerodynamic-propeller-thrust-incorrect

If you don't understand what's backwards it will stress you out. Your builds will work the opposite of what you think they should in some ways. Helicopters use angle of attack of the rotor blades and it can chew you up if you don't know the problems.

Regarding real swash plates in game it boils down to size issues. On the rotor it takes one block minimum for the center (rotating) shaft. Then to have any controls it takes another blank block on each side so the moving part does not rub and then one more block to attach to. So your main rotor hub ends up 5 blocks wide.

The same thing happens on the two axis gimbal mounts for the swash plate. You start with a 5 wide unit but then have to add a blank one on each side so you can get movement without rubbing and then you have to have another block for movement. On each side. So we are up to 9 blocks long ( 5 plus 2 on each side) for a single axis gimbal. Then the next axis adds 4 more for the same reasons. Now our gimbal is 11 blocks wide. This makes for a machine that is unwieldy.

Universal joints (ball joints) take just two 90 degree rotated hinges, so it's only one block wide in the direction of rotation but it's two block long along its length. Then you need another one on the other end so minimum drive shaft with universals on each end is 4 blocks.

If you get clever you can use rubber bands on each side of something for a control shaft but they flex a LOT and it overwhelms the savings in space and placement.

Just chiming in to let you know I feel your pain. The game has lots of ways to accomplish most of the same things much easier EXCEPT no way that I can think of to get changes that are automatic with rotation, ie: rotor blades change with each rotation. The game has no feedback mechanisms so the only feedback is physical meaning the giant sized mechanical solutions described above.

It's not meant to be a helicopter builder game but it shows what a great game it is when we can all do whatever we want with it.

Good luck,

Beege

thank you Beege! your work is great reference! i manage to bring down the size with the new patch (some wooden pole) and making use of the ghosting properties of the brace in invincible mode to flip some supporting structures inside out. however, it doesn't alter the angle of attack too much the way tat i did it will need more tweaking. totally agree that this game is not meant to build helis so there will be limitations. i had to integrate a co-axle design to cancel out the yaw toque. well the game is just awesome! in theory the design works. but in flight everything just goes wonky.

swashHELI3.bsg (14.52 KB) << lastest version
swashHELI.bsg (14.94 KB)
CONTROLS
arrow up & arrow down : collective pitch
yaw left & right : J & L
pitch nose down & up : I & K (doesn't respond fast enough & cases the craft to go out of control)
roll left & right : U & O (doesn't respond fast enough & cases the craft to go out of control)

version 3